mind uploading is impossible mind uploading is impossible

Youre still a biological being, and eventually youll die. And nothing has passed, as Ive seen it, the Lovelace test that you proposed about fifteen years ago. The Impossibility of Mind Uploading | Reason and Meaning Reason and Meaning Philosophical reflections on life, death, and the meaning of life Home Author How To Help Biography Anti-Biography Brief Bio Bio My Search Outgrowing Religion Playing Poker Playing Table Tennis My Mother My Father 35th Wedding Anniversay Academic CV Academic Geneology And we are not at all sure what consciousness even is. What is your argument that cognition is not computable? Mind uploading is the hypothetical concept of making a copy of this inner world and transferring it into a computer to simulate the human mind. Ethics of mind uploads. To illustrate, he played for the crowd a high-pitched series of electronic beeps, which wavered in tone like a robotic birds warble. Mind uploading would involve simulating a human brain in a computer in enough detail that the "simulation" becomes, for all practical purposes, a perfect copy and experiences consciousness, just like protein-based human minds. "This is future, hypothetical technology, but many people are optimistic about an eventual 'post-human' existence and others, of course, are convinced this is absolutely impossible," said study author Anders Sandberg, a philosopher at Oxford . [51], Kenneth D. Miller, a professor of neuroscience at Columbia and a co-director of the Center for Theoretical Neuroscience, raised doubts about the practicality of mind uploading. This would be my number one. The basic problem with that idea is that human minds arent computable. Peter and Jane are not bits and bytes. This could accelerate. Robert J. A bottom-up approach may focus on the specific resolution and morphology of neurons, the spike times of neurons, the times at which neurons produce action potential responses. [13], In theory, if the information and processes of the mind can be disassociated from the biological body, they are no longer tied to the individual limits and lifespan of that body. Brain uploading is a great premise for speculative fiction, but it's not a . Data specifying the information state of the neural network can be captured and copied as a "computer file" from the brain and re-implemented into a different physical form. In the case of the former method, mind uploading would be achieved by scanning and mapping the salient features of a biological brain, and then by storing and copying, that information state into a computer system or another computational device. Taxi driver? Weve got no account of what it is. In effect, a new and equally valid version of that person would now exist, in a potentially immortal, digital form.. But free eternity long virtual existence is highly unlikely. So we dont have to worry about what desire really is and the consciousness associated with that, lets keep it separate . [34][35] Some have also asserted that consciousness is a part of an extra-biological system that is yet to be discovered; therefore it cannot be fully understood under the present constraints of neurobiology. But when you consider that the technology would undoubtedly get smaller and more efficient as time went on, it may not be as much as one would think. Needless to say, even if mind-uploading were possible, it would mean that you, the person initiating the mind uploading, would not feel the effects of the mind uploading procedure. Mind uploading is a speculative process of whole brain emulation in which a brain scan is used to completely emulate the mental state of the individual in a digital computer. Uploading one's mind into a computer, a concept popularized by the 2014 movie Transcendence starring Johnny Depp, is likely to become at least partially possible, but won't lead to . Street cleaners? Your connection to the larger world is almost entirely through digital means. Whats up?, Im depressed, thats what. Arguments for speeding up brain-emulation research: Arguments for slowing down brain-emulation research: Emulation research would also speed up neuroscience as a whole, which might accelerate medical advances, cognitive enhancement, lie detectors, and capability for psychological manipulation. As you drive home, you think: Well, that was a waste of money., At the same time, the simulated you wakes up in a virtual apartment and feels like the same old you. Mind uploading describes a hypothetical process of separating a person's consciousness (which involves their emotions, thought process, experiences, and basically everything that makes a person. I have a booketernally undone but getting quite close nowon Gdels great theorems. Yo, says the sim you. All of these jobs are probably for the chopping block in the medium to long term. Could you elaborate and unwrap that a little bit? It can take many different forms. Lets pretend all of this has come true. I prefer a geometric way of thinking about the situation. Perhaps the most seemingly out-there technology, though, is mind uploading. Perhaps they would inherit our darker motivations or would behave abnormally in the unfamiliar environment of cyberspace. Of course we cant be certain how it might affect our culture but as the technology of simulation and artificial neural networks shapes up, we can guess what that mind uploading future might be like. The biological brain may not survive the copying process or may be deliberately destroyed during it in some variants of uploading. A large-scale society of uploads might, according to futurists, give rise to a technological singularity, meaning a sudden time constant decrease in the exponential development of technology. The attacker might take the computing power for its own use. [24] The exposed surface of frozen nerve tissue would be scanned and recorded, and then the surface layer of tissue removed. So can a teacher, or a manager, or a therapist, or a journalist, or the guy in the complaints department. . A full brain map has been estimated to occupy less than 2 x 1016 bytes (20,000 TB) and would store the addresses of the connected neurons, the synapse type and the synapse "weight" for each of the brains' 1015 synapses. Answer (1 of 4): It's pretty simple. Proponents of mind uploading tend to argue that the brain is a Turing Machine the idea that organic minds are nothing . Seths work has shown compelling evidence that consciousness doesnt just consist of information about the world traveling via our senses as signals into our brains. No, no, lets come up with an account of decision-making that doesnt take the consciousness associated with desire seriously. [28] This is not to deny that minds are richly adapted to their substrates. The perhaps slightly less crazy transhumanists think that brain uploading would involve cutting up the brain. Note: Transhumanists do not usually try to explain how they would create immortality by capturing human consciousness in a machine so one can only evaluate the social movement in terms of the issues it would raise if their ideas were remotely possible. Marks: Its kind of an algorithm of the gaps that someday we are going to have an algorithm that does this sort of thing, yet it has been promised since sixty years ago and nothing has really happened. [29] An analogy to the idea of mind uploading is to copy the temporary information state (the variable values) of a computer program from the computer memory to another computer and continue its execution. There are now two trajectories, each one equally and legitimately you. a) Physics (down to a molecular level) is computable. ", Last edited on 23 February 2023, at 13:49, numerous science fiction novels, films, and games, Sci Fi Science: Physics of the Impossible, "A framework for approaches to transfer of a mind's substrate", "Coalescing minds: brain uploading-related group mind scenarios", "Identifying natural images from human brain activity", "Human-level artificial general intelligence and the possibility of a technological singularity: a reaction to Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity Is Near, and McDermott's critique of Kurzweil", "Neural networks and physical systems with emergent collective computational abilities", "Live ForeverUploading The Human BrainCloser Than You Think", https://bigthink.com/the-future/transhumanism-upload-mind-computer/, "Uploaded e-crews for interstellar missions", "Substrate-Independent Minds - Carboncopies.org Foundation", "Why the human brain project went wrong and how to fix it", "New imaging method developed at Stanford reveals stunning details of brain connections", Large scale analysis of neural structures, "Mapping the Structural Core of Human Cerebral Cortex", "Clearing Up Misconceptions About Mind Uploading", "Time, Consciousness, and Mind Uploading", "The Duplicates Paradox (The Duplicates Problem)", "Response to Susan Schneider's "Philosophy of 'Her", "My Brain, my Mind, and I: Some Philosophical Problems of Mind-Uploading", "You Might Never Upload Your Brain Into a Computer", "When Should Two Minds Be Considered Versions of One Another? [49] Would they be given the rights of biological humans? Marvin Minsky, Conscious Machines, in 'Machinery of Consciousness', Proceedings, National Research Council of Canada, 75th Anniversary Symposium on Science in Society, June 1991. Sometimes the animals would just need to be euthanized in order to extract, slice, and scan their brains, but sometimes behavioral and in vivo measures would be required, which might cause pain to living animals. Whole brain emulation (WBE), mind upload or brain upload (sometimes called "mind copying" or "mind transfer") is the hypothetical futuristic process of scanning the mental state (including long-term memory and "self") of a particular brain substrate and copying it to a computer. Instead, it will create a possibly hostile digital doppelgnger. Destructive scanning of a small sample of tissue from a mouse brain including synaptic details is possible as of 2010. [58], Moravec (1979) describes and endorses mind uploading using a brain surgeon. Publicly shared, self-driving cars are almost here. The technology is likely to be far in our future; it may be centuries before the details are fully worked out and yet given how much interest and effort is already directed towards that goal, mind uploading seems inevitable. There are no laws of. Number two would be creativity As much as he was a maniac, Wagner. Operation of the brain depends on the dynamics of electrical and biochemical signal exchange between neurons; therefore, capturing them in a single "frozen" state may prove insufficient. Michael SA Graziano is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Princeton University, Rethinking Consciousness: A Scientific Theory of Subjective Experience by Michael SA Graziano is published by WW Norton & Company (21). If a virtual afterlife is created, the people in it, with the same personalities and needs that they had in real life, would have no reason to isolate themselves from the rest of us. [4] According to supporters, many of the tools and ideas needed to achieve mind uploading already exist or are currently under active development; however, they will admit that others are, as yet, very speculative, but say they are still in the realm of engineering possibility. Is Mind uploading possible? What is the relationship between bio you and sim you? The brain is made of cells. Selmer Bringsjord: Well, first, to be careful, some of them are not computable. The sim you and the bio you represent two fully functional, interactive, capable instances of you, competing within the same larger, interconnected, social and economic universe. Robotics and artificial intelligence will take them over. It sits up in a new bed and says: I cant believe it worked! In Silicon Valley that has long been a serious belief. Many of them require physical action, and those are the jobs that will probably be replaced by automatons. Maybe the better term is the foundation world and the cloud world. The point is how that upload is treated once it's uploaded. The CEO of a company, a Steve Jobs type who has shaped up a sweet set of neural connections in his brain that makes him exceptional at his work, can manage from a remote, simulated office. Im in my apartment eating ice-cream. Mind uploading requires three assumptions: (1) that we can construct realistic computational simulations of human brains; (2) that realistic computational simulations of human brains would have conscious minds like those possessed by the brains being simulated; (3) that the minds of the simulated brains survive through the simulation. Herbert Simon (19162001): Machines will be capable, within twenty years, of doing any work that a man can do. Families could have Christmas dinner with sim Grandma joining in on video conference, the tablet screen propped up at the end of the table presuming she has time for her bio family any more, given the rich possibilities in the simulated playground. Brain uploading, Koene agreed, was about evolving humanity, leaving behind the confines of a polluted planet and liberating humans to experience things that would be impossible in an organic body. In 2009, as director of the Blue Brain Project, he claimed that "A detailed, functional artificial human brain can be built within the next 10 years". In effect, a new and equally valid version of that person would now exist, in a potentially immortal, digital form. The technology is likely to be far in our future; it may be centuries before the details are fully worked out and yet given how much interest and effort is already directed towards that goal, mind uploading seems inevitable. The focus of mind uploading, in the case of copy-and-transfer, is on data acquisition, rather than data maintenance of the brain. Although it remains uncertain whether mind uploading is possible, Sandberg is now exploring the potential ethical consequences of software that can suffer. [5][citation needed] Using these models, some have estimated that uploading may become possible within decades if trends such as Moore's law continue. This sim you decides to explore. Socially, politically, economically, the virtual and the real worlds would connect into one larger and always expanding civilisation. For whole brain simulation, this network map should show the connectivity of the whole nervous system, including the spinal cord, sensory receptors, and muscle cells. Even a very young child can learn an infallible algorithm for Tic Tac Toe but when they make those decisions theyre doing something thats computable. Would criminal emulations receive the death penalty, or would they be given forced data modification as a form of "rehabilitation"? I wont call it an it any more, because that mind is a version of you. Roadmap p.11 "Given the complexities and conceptual issues of consciousness we will not examine criteria 6abc, but mainly examine achieving criteria 15. Your fingers dont have fingerprints theyre smooth, to save memory on fine detail. It's not theoretically impossible, but any emulation will be a poor one indeed until vast advances in both neuroscience and computer power are made. Here, you cant be injured because your virtual body cant break. Hes here too! [44] Questions also arise regarding the moral status of partial brain emulations, as well as creating neuromorphic emulations that draw inspiration from biological brains but are built somewhat differently. I cant believe I spent all that money for zilch., Zilch?! Marvin Minsky (19272016): Within 10 years computers wont even keep us as pets. Robert J. Data extraction and storage, however, is not the only challenge. [12] [16] The LCOL approach may take advantage of self-reports, life-logs and video recordings that can be analyzed by artificial intelligence. [41][42][43], In light of uncertainty on whether to regard uploads as conscious, Sandberg proposes a cautious approach:[44]. Selmer Bringsjord (right): Let me just say that I couldnt agree with you more about the delayed scrutiny [claims about uploading our minds to computers are pegged to an indefinite future] and the antidote to that is just taking a bet. Marks and computer scientist Selmer Bringsjord discussed whether we could achieve immortality by uploading our minds to computers. Mind uploading denies the biological nature of human existence. People are conscious and even the most sophisticated foreseeable computers are not. Richard Dixon. "Mind transfer" redirects here. As a consequence, consciousness is not algorithmic, artificial intelligence will never become conscious, mind uploading and digital immortality are impossible, the human brain cannot be. There could even be a creation of a whole new virtual world from the creation of mind uploading. The balance of power and culture would shift rapidly to the cloud. [23], However, if short-term memory and working memory include prolonged or repeated firing of neurons, as well as intra-neural dynamic processes, the electrical and chemical signal state of the synapses and neurons may be hard to extract. If you live the typical western lifestyle, then the smallest part of your life involves interacting with people in the physical space around you. It could reproduce in Silica which means on computers in Zero and One. In that scenario, the foundation world becomes a kind of larval stage for immature minds, and the cloud world is where life really begins. It would allow for the use of smaller spacecraft, such as the proposed StarChip, and it would enable virtually unlimited interstellar travel distances.[15]. It can involve gradual replacement of brain parts (gradual uploading), instant scanning . Mind uploading also relies on the idea that the human mind (the "self" and the long-term memory), just like non-human minds, is represented by the current neural network paths and the weights of the brain synapses rather than by a dualistic and mystic soul and spirit. Of course we cant be certain how it might affect our culture but as the technology of simulation and artificial neural networks shapes up, we can guess what that mind uploading future might be like. [21][22], Required computational capacity strongly depend on the chosen level of simulation model scale:[5], When modelling and simulating the brain of a specific individual, a brain map or connectivity database showing the connections between the neurons must be extracted from an anatomic model of the brain. And on this point I absolutely agree with Stross when he says: Our form of conscious intelligence emerged from our evolutionary. [6] Mind uploading is a central conceptual feature of numerous science fiction novels, films, and games. For example, the C. elegans roundworm, Drosophila fruit fly, and mouse have all been simulated to various degrees. This may make assassination easier than for physical humans. Marks: In your paper, you claim that consciousness is a special case of cognition. Mind uploading is the hypothetical future technology of transferring human minds to computer hardware using whole-brain emulation. [57], Emulations might be easier to control than de novo AI because. These issues have a long history. [59] Moravec (1988) uses a similar description and calls it "transmigration".[60]. Their unspoken responsibility would be to gain wisdom and experience before joining the ranks of the cloud world. This doesn't change the issue of death as being a permanent lights off, even if mind uploads were indeed feasible. Could an upload have marriage and child-care rights? Greater investment in brain emulation and associated cognitive science might enhance the ability of artificial intelligence (AI) researchers to create "neuromorphic" (brain-inspired) algorithms, such as neural networks, reinforcement learning, and hierarchical perception. While this would be a very slow and labor-intensive process, research is currently underway to automate the collection and microscopy of serial sections. It is hypothetically possible that we could copy your brain and reproduce it. Marks (right): So, if we have these things cognition and consciousness, which are attributes of humans, your claim in your paper is that they are non-algorithmic, that is, that you cant write a computer program to simulate them. Thinking machines? Many neuroscientists believe that the human mind is largely an emergent property of the information processing of its neuronal network.[7]. Lets work out the contract. The persons mind and memories, emotions and personality would be duplicated. Or Marvin Minsky well, its a few summers or maybe even one summer, dont worry, well bring you back this AI. Their emergence and existence may lead to increased risk of war, including inequality, power struggles, strong loyalty and willingness to die among emulations, and new forms of racism, xenophobia, and religious prejudice. At the simplest level, mind uploading would preserve people in an indefinite afterlife. [25] The scans would then be analyzed, and a model of the neural net recreated in the system that the mind was being uploaded into. If a person makes an emulated copy of themselves and then dies, does the emulation inherit their property and official positions? Existential Meaning and Afterlife Beliefs Predict Mind Upload Approval", "Will You Ever Be Able to Upload Your Brain? We may also have brain emulations for a brief but significant period on the way to non-emulation based human-level AI. The simulated mind could be within a virtual reality or simulated world, supported by an anatomic 3D body simulation model. . Mind Uploading is Impossible -- Why Brain Copying and Conscious Computers Violate Laws of Physics Share Watch on Please keep in mind that the above summary video is a great introduction to the proofs and arguments in the main videos, but that the arguments themselves are truncated. In fact, the leadng formal account of human emotionsthe so-called OCC account, which I like very muchhas come up totally empty on any kind of formal account of love. Well call it the simulated you. Marks: So what would be some examples of cognition that were not computable? They are not computable. But quantum teleportation comes to the rescue! the epigenetic states of neurons, protein components with multiple functional states, etc.) In 2004, Henry Markram, lead researcher of the Blue Brain Project, stated that "it is not [their] goal to build an intelligent neural network", based solely on the computational demands such a project would have. The company has consulted with lawyers familiar with California's two-year-old End of Life Option Act, which permits doctor-assisted suicide for terminal patients, and believes its service will . But are we really anywhere close? Construction workers? The part of you that lives indefinitely is represented by both the stem of the Y and the left-hand branch. Now, we cant mathematize that. Mind uploading could transform our culture and civilisation more profoundly than anything in our past. The feats of machines like AlphaGo are due to superior computational power, not to creativity at originating new ideas. [11], Many theorists have presented models of the brain and have established a range of estimates of the amount of computing power needed for partial and complete simulations. Unless there is something that it is actually like to be human, unless the human feels pain, unless the human feels pleasure Lets just write down the activities that are part of being a cognitive agent as opposed to just an agent because in AI a textbook can say that an agent just computes a function from the percepts of the environment to actions. Each of us might as well already be in a virtual world, with a steady flow of information passing in and out through CNN, Google, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and text. Improvements in manufacturing, 3D printing, and nanotechnology may accelerate hardware production. It is possible that humans would react violently against the growing power of emulations, especially if that depresses human wages. This is currently done in limited ways using MRI. In addition, the nature of these signals may require modeling down to the molecular level and beyond. What emerges is not a single you, but a topologically intricate version, a hyper you with two or more branches. Underlying the concept of "mind uploading" (more accurately "mind transferring") is the broad philosophy that consciousness lies within the brain's information processing and is in essence an emergent feature that arises from large neural network high-level patterns of organization, and that the same patterns of organization can be realized in other processing devices. Not So Fast, OpenAI, Text Generators, Education, and Critical Thinking: an Update, Ex-Googler Blake Lemoine Still Thinks AI is Sentient, Center for Natural and Artificial Intelligence, Walter BradleyCenter for Natural and Artificial Intelligence. Natural and Artificial Intelligence News and Analysis, https://episodes.castos.com/mindmatters/Mind-Matters-077-Selmer-Bringsjord.mp3, Cognition is not computation: The argument from irreversibility., Apocalypticism, Dystopia, and the Singularity, Applied Intelligence, Problem Solving, and Innovation, Natural Human, Animal, and Organismic Intelligence, A Chat with Blake Lemoine on Google and AI Sentience, Winning and Losing Strategies for Casino Gambling, Robert J. [50], Emulations might be preceded by a technological arms race driven by first-strike advantages. . Now the biological you answers the phone. Uploading the content of one's mind, including one's personality, memories and emotions, into a computer may one day be possible, but it won't transfer our biological consciousness and won't make us immortal. And if it is possible by 2048, it is unlikely to be done by those who fold their arms and say it is impossible. Mind uploading is a radical form of human enhancement, whereby the human mind is transferred from the vulnerable organic medium of the brain to a computer system of some kind. Next: Why a computer will not write the Great 21st Century Novel. In the Black Mirror episode USS Callister (2017), a coder creates a Star Trek-like game with characters who are digital copies of his colleagues. If it is possible to replicate neuron function from its visible structure alone, then the resolution afforded by a scanning electron microscope would suffice for such a technique. [49], If simulated minds would come true and if they were assigned rights of their own, it may be difficult to ensure the protection of "digital human rights". That site has not been actively updated in recent years, but it has spawned other sites including MindUploading.org, run by Randal A. Koene, who also moderates a mailing list on the topic. For other uses, see, Scanning and mapping scale of an individual. A set of approaches known as loosely coupled off-loading (LCOL) may be used in the attempt to characterize and copy the mental contents of a brain. Are we to assume that an upload is conscious if it verbally insists that it is conscious? have implants to make a live backup but other than working out the technical details I see no reason why uploading the mind should be deemed impossible. Whats it like for one person to genuinely love another person and be loved by that person. (The relevant comments are scattered on this . Regardless of the techniques used to capture or recreate the function of a human mind, the processing demands are likely to be immense, due to the large number of neurons in the human brain along with the considerable complexity of each neuron. Lets say the left-hand branch is the simulated you and the right-hand branch is the biological you. It may be possible to extend the techniques of serial sectioning and to capture the internal molecular makeup of neurons, through the use of sophisticated immunohistochemistry staining methods that could then be read via confocal laser scanning microscopy. If you uploaded all the . Here are a few questions that have been raised: What does it mean for conventional notions of the person? (1965). Its this kind of idealised afterlife that people have in mind, when they think about the benefits of mind uploading. Animals might also suffer by accident due to flaws and lack of insight into what parts of their brains are suffering. Importantly, to . In Johnny Mnemonic, Keanu Reeves plays a mnemonic courier with a data implant in his brain, whose mother has been uploaded to a virtual internet. It is discussed in artificial intelligence research publications as an approach to strong AI (artificial general intelligence) and to at least weak superintelligence. Michio Kaku, in collaboration with Science, hosted a documentary, Sci Fi Science: Physics of the Impossible, based on his book Physics of the Impossible.